it's either going to go to china or come to the united states. in either event the carbon footprint will be deeper. the further point about whether or not an oil pipeline somehow endangers the land which it crosses i think has been asked and answered so many times it's no longer a relevant consideration. look, the map of the united states is literally a spider web of oil and product pipelines. >> woodruff: you're saying already. >> already. the fact of the matter is the chances of sustaining a spill of oil out of an oil pipeline is 1 quarter the amount of alternative forms of transportation were we to take those oil pipelines away and take them in a different mechanism. >> woodruff: bob deans, what about that second point first? there are already so many pipelines in the u.s. and the rate of spills or problems with that is so low. >> well, the reason we have these pipelines is because we've been addicted to fossil fuels for more than a century now we need to turn away from that. we need to begin using less oil. we're using 10% less now than when